Wisdom Seed Wade Wallerstein in conversation with Keiken Tuesday 2nd May 2023, Twitter Spaces

Wade: Hi, guys. Good morning. Good evening.

Emily: Hey, Wade. How are you doing?

Wade: Good. Just starting my day out over here. Excited for our talk today. It should be fun.

Emily: Yes, definitely. Hey, Hana and Keiken. So, you've just joined. I sent you a speaker request. I'll give it a few more minutes, let a few other people drop in. I'll introduce you guys and then pass it over to you.

Hana: Hey.

Emily: Hey.

Hana: Hey, Wade. Hey, everyone. Hey, Emily. Hi, Josh.

Emily: All right, guys. I guess, let's just jump into it because I'm super excited for today. So, yeah, welcome, everyone. My name is Emily. I'm the community designer here at Wisdoms for Neknel. And thank you so much for joining today's Wisdom Seeds. Yeah, I have a feeling that it's gonna be pretty special today. And a quick note, we'd like to switch things up a bit. So, if you have any questions throughout the space, feel free to request to speak. We'd love to have you as part of the conversation or tweet us any questions or observations below, and we can get back to you.

So, yeah. I'm really excited to introduce Wade Wallerstein, a.k.a. Habitual Truant. Wade is an anthropologist whose research centres around communication in virtual spaces and the relationship between digital visual culture and contemporary art. Wade is an associate curator at Gray Area, community manager at Outland, and co-director of TRANSFER, a fem-forward and simulation-focused art gallery. And yeah, Wade is joined by Hana from Keiken, and they both have a really beautiful relationship and are super interconnected with each other's practices. So, yeah, welcome to you both. And just before we plant today's seeds and I pass the conversation over to you, I'd love to start by asking you both a question. So, in 1000 years from now, when I presume we're all residing in Neknel and we don't have jobs, what would you be doing on a Tuesday?

Wade: Oh, my gosh, that's such a good question. I'm gonna have to think about that for a second, but I've thought about this a lot because I was watching a sci-fi series recently and it was, you know, kind of in this post-AI world where people never die and, you know, people have become so bored with, you know, contemporary entertainment that they find, like, crazy ways to entertain themselves. And I don't know. I can't believe that I'll be anything else but just excited and in wonder to experience what Neknel has to offer and, like, I will probably be, like, lounging somewhere. I love to lounge. I feel like me and Hana would be, like, laying in, like, beside whatever version of a pool there is in Neknel and being fed grapes by something.

Emily: No, I love that so much. I feel like when I think about that question, I could say something like really deep here, but no, I think I will just be like chilling somewhere really beautiful. Was that series you're watching... Oh, what's it called? Is it on Netflix called "Altered Carbon?" It sounds really similar.

Wade: Yes. Well, it's not that, but I also have watched that, and, yes, very similar, you know, where kind of the ultra...where people don't die and so as a result, they find more and more extreme ways to... Oh, do you know what I was watching? It was "Alice in Borderland," a Japanese show also on Netflix. And, yeah, I think that, you know, I can't... I don't know. I'm the kind of person who finds wonder in the simplest and, like, silliest things ever. I still get a crack out of, like, any meme that has the green M&M lady in it. Like, anytime, I'm on the floor. And so I have to believe that, like, you know, no matter how advanced or transcended we become, that, you know, we still, you know, appreciate the little things.

Emily: No, totally. Totally agree. And Hana, what about you? In 1000 years' time, what would you be doing on a Tuesday?

Hana: I think what Wade said was, like, kind of, it's basically indicative of a time that everyone, like, really wants more time to relax and, you know, just enjoy life in a way that really feels like you're running at the time. The way that you move in life is at the speed that serves you rather than the speed that is. And I know that, like, there's a lot of, like, theories on, like, joy and how the kind of divine feminine energy actually values joy inherently, but the system that we're in, there's no hardcore value for joy in the sense that you provide entertainment to people, but it's always quick fixes. It's not like, what is, like, joy. So, like a huge part of joy is being able to, like Wade said, is, like, value the small things. So, it's being able to have community, it's being able to...you know, for example, being able to cook meals, and being able to grow food, being able to spend... Like even small stuff like, you know, say if you go to, like, wash your hands, and rather than, you know, it's just an act, but you could feel the water and you could think about it. And if you're like, "Oh, wow, this is quite amazing." It's, like, all those, like, very small, small moments, but they're all part of joy and they're all part of being able to exist in a way that's really indicative of actually how your body feels like it should function.

So, I do think, like, for me, especially because I've been working so much, it's the idea of being able to still...like, for example, it's like I always wanna be creating things and I always want to be doing things that enable me to create all the time, but at the same time, I want to be able to value the people that I'm around and to give them love. I want to give, like, the world around... It's not just, like, the world around you. It's even, like, I don't know, I grew up in the countryside, so it's, like, I had specific rocks that were near me or the sea and things like that. It's like you give joy to everything around you. And I think if you can get to a place where you're in more harmony with things, like, that is somewhere that, like, I certainly would like to be in the future regardless of how many technological growths and changes there are, I think that being able to exist in a way that really feels like you're moving at the speed that you should be and you're really valuing all the things that are around you in a very whole way, I think that's totally how I always imagined, like, my dream world being.

Wade: Well, also, the other thing that I thought that you said was important, you know, was, like, the idea of community. And I think that, like, to me, like, a state of harmony is a state where we can spend time together, time without a goal, time without a purpose, time without, like, a task that has to be done. I often think that, like, the most productive thing you can do with someone is to do nothing together. And, like, you know, my future utopia I think has a lot of that time scheduled in. I mean, obviously, you know, I think that, like, as people, as beings, we need common purpose and, you know, like, shared experience to tie us together, but I do really think that that kind of just complete, purposeless, like, the only purpose is to spend time together is really, really critical.

Hana: I think it's also just enwrapped with, like, things, like, you could feel guilty that you're not doing your work or you could feel guilty that you're not doing something else. Or you can be fearful, like, "Fuck, if I don't do this now, then... I would love to spend time with you, but I can't because I've gotta do this now." And if you could, like, stretch time... I think actually, there will be a technology that will be able to stretch time in the future because, like, I'm pretty sure aliens can do it, so we definitely should be able to do it. But I think being able to stretch time, but also being able... I don't think it's just about, like, stretching time. I think it's also about being able to inhabit time in a different way. But, yeah.

Emily: No, they're such beautiful answers. So, yeah. I know we don't have too much of an agenda today, but I'd love just to hear more about how you guys know each other, different projects you've worked on, and how your practices sort of interconnect. So, yeah. I'll just pass it over to you guys.

Wade: Well, I definitely wanted to say that I'm really excited to be here today and be talking about Wisdoms for Neknel because I have been talking with Keiken about these ideas and also have worked on kind of some earlier iterations of this project and kind of the precursor project to this, Wisdoms for Love 2.0. And so it's really cool to see how the vision has developed and, you know, where it's come from and, you know, what... And I'm also really curious to hear from you, Hana, like, what you guys have learned so far. You've been kind of on this journey thinking about this, I mean, and related ideas for much longer, but with this project specifically, probably three years now, something like that. And I'm sure that in that time, you guys have, like, changed direction 7, 8, 9, 10 times. Yeah, I don't know. How has that kind of journey been?

Hana: Yeah. So, I think the beginning was, obviously, like, it was this kind of...it definitely emerged, like, in 2021 when... It's just when COVID happened, there were so many changes, there were so many reflections to be had. When we made Wisdoms for Love 3.0, that one, it's kind of funny because I feel like that piece of work it really is about the kind of...it was really reflecting on the contemporary moment in the sense that it was really reflecting on, like, "Well, how do people feel now? And how could that be propelled into the future?" And I think we were reflecting a lot on, like, how you could see from a bird's eye what systems and infrastructures were there in relation to, like, how people felt and how that could have, like, some sort of impending implication for the future, that the feelings of now will create whatever exists to come. And that infinitely entwined.

And I think that, like, as some of you must already know, but we started to think about how we kind of... We are, like, the main character of our own, like, narrative that we play in the world, but it's like we're in a gameplay. And rather than, you know, in a game, you might have, like, a gun or you might have a weapon to be able to interact with the world and get to different places and to achieve different levels or whatever. But in the Earth game, it's like you have the kind of main tool is money and you use it as a form of exchange. And it often is a kind of, like, guiding factor in the way that you might live out your life experience and your kind of narrative. So, I think we started to think about this idea of gameplay and that the tools that we have on Earth are very inherently affecting the way that we operate. And we should think about those tools very carefully. And maybe we could use the blockchain to change this. And so we thought about how, like, well, what happens if you... So, what's kind of missing with, like, a financial infrastructure?

So, I think the implication of financial infrastructure is, yes, it's very efficient. It's, like, does its task pretty well in the sense that you can exchange goods and resources all over the world, but there's huge inherent implications for it. It's also we're in a time of accelerationism, which, again, is, like, going back to this idea of, like, we're moving too fast and it's not at the speed that allows us to conscientiously make decisions in the best way that is for everyone, and thinking of everyone. But what happens if financial structures couldn't hit...like, currency could inherently be philosophical? So, for example, it's like if you are learning computer science or you're learning to be a coder, is it not important that you also learn philosophy at the same time because it's really important or... Wade, what was the subject you studied again?

Wade: Anthropology.

Hana: Anthropology. Yeah. You should learn anthropology, you should learn philosophy, all these different, like, subjects alongside if you learn to code because it's, like, really important that anything that builds structures should also have philosophical undertaking with them. So, like, what happens if you create financial... That should maybe be applied to finance too. And so the blockchain could, like, potentially have, like, currencies that are, like, alternate forms of currency such as, in this case, wisdom is the first one, but you could have dream currency, or you could have care points. And, like, you know, for example, there's ones, like, you should have motherhood points because motherhood should be financially... You should gain something from it. It should reward you in some way that, like, enables your infrastructure to be stronger. You should have joy points. You should have all these things because they are actually inherently valuable to human beings and to the earth and to the universe.

So, I think that was the kind of, like, conceptualization of it. And then, like, the next turn really was that I think for us as artists, we world-build. And because we world-build, we have this kind of, like, living thing that exists. It's not like an artwork that finishes and it's closed. It's like it just keeps growing and growing. And it kind of comes from this kind of source point in some ways, like, we're always speculating the future and all the different words connect to each other. So, is there a way in which we can find a new model where we physically create a system, how people can interact with the world. They have to interact with it in like... They can't just interact with it in, like, a numerical or financial way, they have to interact with it in a community-based way, they have to interact with it in a philosophical way. So, you create a new infrastructure, and then you create a world that people can inhabit and learn about and become part of. And I think that's what the blockchain could provide. So, it's very much thinking with, like, longevity and this idea of, like, not just an artwork itself. It's thinking of it as, like, the world that you're creating and finding access points to it and a new system in which people could engage with it. So, it's kind of, like, very large in the way that you're thinking very long-term thinking, but I think that that way of thinking is really important to approach and it's, obviously, very alternative too. I don't know if that makes sense.

Wade: It totally makes sense. And, I mean, just hearing you talk just kind of evokes all of the feelings that I had that you had that, you know, we were talking about right at the beginning of the pandemic, particularly as the NFT market reached kind of, like, a rising crest and there was such a boom and excitement about this new technology and what it would mean for our lives, what it would mean for economies. And specifically, you know, the majority of the conversations were about, you know, money, they were about, like, how do we use this to make systems that are more sustainable, that are more egalitarian, that are more inclusive of more people and allow for a much wider range of access points? And, like, I think that, you know, the central question that we dealt with, particularly in our TRANSFER show, Pieces of Me, that Wisdoms for Love 3.0 was included in was, like, what is valuable? How do we feel about value? What is truly valuable in the world? Is it a financial asset? Is it a crypto? Is it cryptocurrency? Is it our experiences with each other? Is it an artwork? Is it, you know, whatever it might be?

And I think that in a lot of ways, something that I was really excited about, about kind of the emergence of the decentralised web was a focus on community. And, I mean, I think in a lot of ways that... But it was really interesting because community was really leveraged as a financial mechanism and continues to be leveraged as a financial mechanism by, you know, for instance, membership-based DAOs who, you know, you buy in to join a social club sort of structure. And, I mean, that's one of the things as well that really resonates with me about Neknel is this proposition that value isn't determined by a market. Value is determined by ideas, by emotional connection, by wisdom that I think, you know, to this day still really resonates with me.

Hana: Yeah, totally. And I think that, like, it's really important. It's like, obviously, we're, like, artists and I think we're not, like, necessarily... It's not like we are... My work is not, like, I'm not, like, a community leader or something like that. But what we can do is we can cultivate these new systems and, like, you are the community, you can create your own community, you can find common ground. Or, like, we. Because, like, the amazing thing about the blockchain is, like, obviously, people, like, there's so much value based on, like, financial. A lot of it is to do financial things and also that's why, like, a lot of things collapse because it showed, like, there was a lot of shallow relationships. But at the same time, there's also this amazing, like, emancipatory possibility where, like, I think digital spaces can actually... Even though, for example, platforms like Instagram or something like that can be inherently, like, superficial, but actually, if you think of, like, most digital spaces, they take away a lot of your senses and they abstract a lot of who you are, but you could actually find loads of common ground with people in ways that you can never imagine because what people are interested in is so weirdly niche.

Like, it's so weird what people are interested in. People have this natural gravity to, like, something that seems so beyond themselves that it's like, why the hell are you so interested in, I don't know, like... Even like anthropology to arts, to digital arts, you know, to very specific, like, genre, to blah, blah, blah. And it's almost this, like, magnetic pull to something that is beyond yourself. And I think that this kind of, like... So, what's so amazing about digital spaces and especially things that cultivate some sense of a place to converse with one another and to share ideas is you find people that you just share this really, like...it's like inherently important to you that you talk about this thing and you research it and you keep going in this, like, kind of invisible path to somewhere that you don't even know. And I think that's kind of, like, the sort, like, we want to try to, like, open those gates in some way through our art, but through also this kind of world-building and letting people in using the blockchain, if that makes sense.

Wade: Yeah, absolutely. I think that, you know, on an... I mean, the thing that we're constantly lacking for, I think, is infrastructure because I think that in a lot of ways, the ideas are there and the desire from, you know, community actors are there to, you know, organise in more meaningful, more connected, more holistic ways, but we don't always have the tools, the resources, the infrastructure, the systems in place to even, like, organise or orchestrate new systems. And yeah, it does feel really exciting that the blockchain could be used as a pathway to do that. Do you really feel like blockchain is the tool that can do that? Like, how are you guys feeling about, you know, yeah, launching this new collection?

Hana: I think, for us, it's like, we love working with technology and, for us, it doesn't really matter if the technology is not perfect or it's... Pretty much every technology... Technologies are like... It's like the blockchain is inherently bad and inherently good at the same time. So, you kind of need to just, like, think... You just imagine upon it. And I think if we can, like, cultivate that imagining to happen into action, then I think it could be something that's, like, meaningful and it can actually prosper something that is helpful in people's lives and cultivate this more dynamic way of approaching art and being able to be part of something because I think there's a lot of things that can be lacking.

I think the system that we exist in with a lot of, like, substructures, which are, like, you know, the art world has their own structure in itself and, you know, the blockchain is like... It's kind of interesting because it has those possibilities for new structures, but it does also have, like, certain ones that are starting to be formed and written into existence. But I think that, like, in some ways, it's like if you can make it happen, I think it's amazing, but I think the tools are there to be able to make it happen. And for us, it's just exciting to have a technology to work with that could facilitate an idea. And I feel like it bridges the gap between us, like, creating art away from everything else and then just quite, matter of fact, just showing it in a gallery. It kind of bridges a different way and it's more platform diverse, which I think being a kid of the internet, I think you really value and understand that way of operating because it's inherently... It's the same with you. It's like I've grown up a life in the physical realm, but I also have a whole 'nother life that I've existed in digitally since I was, like, a kid. So, yeah.

Wade: Well, I talk about this a lot. I mean, particularly, you know, thinking about, like, those experiences going back to childhood, like, one thing that, yeah, I think about all the time is that kids today and people just in general are brought up with virtual spaces being normal and being, like, primary spaces of interaction, of engagement, of learning, of play, etc., etc., etc. I always quote this study, and I think it was 2015. It was like a while ago now. They found that at least 50% of adults in the United States consider themselves gamers or say that they play video games. And that I think is really, really, really significant. More than half of the adult population is native to these spaces, understands the visual vernacular, understands the kinds of, you know, social mores that, you know, are separate from the physical world that are unique to a digital space. And this is how we are.

I don't think we're at a point... I mean, there's so much, like, you know, just kind of, like, clickbaity, fear-mongering. Are we addicted to being online? Kind of stuff that gets propagated. But at the end of the day, like, we're already there, you know, like we're talking to each other through our phones. These virtual spaces are primary spaces of interaction and I think that we have to treat them as such. And I kind of have a little bee in my bonnet about, you know, when people kind of, like, disregard the impact that spending time in a game space or in a play space or in a virtual space or in any kind of digital social space is less meaningful or should be looked down upon or should be seen as a diluted experience. That feels really wrong to me.

Hana: Yeah, I completely agree. I think, yeah, if anyone else in the chat wants to talk about, like, their experiences or, like, what they think about, like, the existing within digital spaces and how it impacts them, then feel free to...or just a general question. But yeah, I completely agree. I think that, like, also you have to think about it as, like, how... It's like, where do people want to exist or where are people going to exist and need but aren't satisfied with it? So, you will want to, like, impact that and change it and try to shape it in some form or way.

I don't know. For example, watching YouTube videos. So, like, I watch like a bunch of streamers. And before, I didn't like watching streamers because they used to always just be like... My brother used to watch them. He'd always watch, you know, like blend an iPhone or something like that. They'd just be like so shit and I'd just be like, "Why the fuck does he spend so much time watching these stupid videos?" I just wouldn't watch them. But then, like, now on, like, YouTube, it's like I can watch crazy-ass debates and also people trying to attack and shape and form. Like, for example, they'll see, like, a new community emerging, a new collective thought that's happening, and they'll try to interject in some way. So, they'll, like, take on that popular video and then they'll, like, start conversing about it amongst another group of people who are more able to, like, have maybe more mediated conversations. And they try to, like, take that thought and dissect it.

And there's so many, like, amazing, like, intersections of the way that people operate now. And I think, like, when you watch it and you see it and you actually think about how much time you spend on the Internet, it's like we're gonna be in those places and the future generation are gonna be in those places. So, obviously, we need to find technologies and forms and outputs and platforms that serve us better, but we also need to create them. And we do that not only by, like, speculating how things could exist. It's about initiating seeds so that you actually make those things as happenings. But also you have to, like, engage with it and challenge it and think of something different. And I think it's super, super important.

For example, like, the blockchain, like, I don't know. I was in Hong Kong the other day and I just started to speak to this banker because, I don't know, there's loads of rich people in Hong Kong. And so I started to speak to him and he's like an international banker. So, I was like, "Okay. I wanna know everything about banking to, like, get your perspective on it and see how you operate and why it's of value to you and what is the kind of internal systems of what you're doing." Yeah. I can't remember the finishing of my sentence but, like, it was really interesting because I was just like, "Oh, I actually..." From having that conversation, it just made me kind of realise just quite... It's really important to be able to find new forms of being able to engage with new kinds of people. And I think that the Internet really allows that because, actually, if you can find more mandatory ways of being able to manoeuvre in it, then you can find people that come from really different places, and then through that, you can also find also really weird niche common ground.

And I don't know, when I was having a conversation with the person, I can't exactly remember what my thought was because I was just really tired at the moment. But I remember just, like, thinking how fucking different I am, but then also how to, like, bridge that gap of, like, how would my mindset be able to communicate to that and how do you find forms in which you can make people from really different places come together in really weird circumstances? And I think sometimes people think about that. They think about, like, "Oh, well." The good old days used to be that you go to a bar or something like that and you just randomly meet someone. But I do think that the Internet, the forms and the shapes of it, it's just like...and the digital space and how they could perpetuate into something even greater. You can create those happenings and those moments. And I think that, like, it's important that art intersects with that if that makes sense. I'm sorry. I think I had my thought and then I lost my thought and then I tried to regain my thought. But I'm pretty tired.

Wade: No, I totally feel you. I totally feel you. And, I mean, that's one of the things and I think why Web 3 has been so impactful to the arts community has been because, like, it was an ecosystem where art kind of came first where we weren't using, you know, NFTs to sell tickets or to sell real estate, which, you know, there are more experimentations with different kinds of sales. But, you know, NFTs artworks were really the first thing that became really popular as a tradable asset here, and as a result, community formed around shared bonds around art, which I think is really, really meaningful and something that I hope that...you know, and that I've seen. Not that I hope, that I actually have seen in the bear market happen, you know, as financial structures stop working the way that we want them to or in ways that, you know, make certain actors profitable.

People are organising not around wealth but around common interests, things that they like, things that, you know, are meaningful to them. I'm the community manager over at Outland, and I have, you know, loved, loved, loved getting to know so many different people from around the world who are so different from me that have completely different backgrounds and completely different interests, but we all love, for instance, like Ian Chang's three-faced NFT, which I'm currently wearing as my profile picture. And I think that, like, this is something that speaks to, like, a Neknel future, you know, a future world around shared value, value being denoted by the amount of, you know, emotional impact that something can have on you. And I think that, you know, in a lot of ways, like, we're starting to see that future come together in small places and small moments here and there, for sure.

Hana: Yeah. I wonder, like, through those kind of shared spaces and stuff, like, the most amazing kind of thing, like, and then most amazing sort of interaction to maybe your hardest critique is.

Wade: What do you mean hardest critique?

Hana: So, for example, within community, like, when you're creating, like, digital... So, for example, it's like with Wisdoms for Neknel, obviously, there's like we're speculating the future, but then also there's an aspect to it that's community and how you kind of allow people to access the art, but they are somewhat, like, niche. This is like a structure that's like... There's our own critique on it, so we are gonna make the structure slightly different, but we're then existing within these spaces. What are the things that you think are the... Because you exist within a lot of, like, digital spaces and communities, I know also you did a lot of the VR chat. I swear, did you do VR chat or was it the other one?

Wade: Oh, yes, I did. I love VR chat.

Hana: Yeah, you love VR chat. I remember being like, "Can I come inside?" I was like, "Oh." But, yeah, I think it'd be interesting to hear, like, some of the most, like, amazing experiences you had or the ones that are things that you think are like, "Oh, it's good, but it could be better."

Wade: Oh, I see. I see what you're saying. Okay. So, I think that... Oh, that's a really good question. Okay. So, one thing that really blew my mind that I thought was, like, unbelievably amazing was LaTurbo Avedon did an installation in Fortnite for the Manchester International Festival two years ago. And that really blew my mind because it was an entire experiential artwork told through poetry in a 3D space that was co-present. I think you could have up to 25 users or players kind of in the experience at once. And it was built using Fortnite Creative, which meant that there was a portal on Fortnite's kind of, like, home hub space where anyone could go in and go to the space. And I think something like over a million players ended up visiting the installation over the course of its, you know, activation.

And of course, those are people who are not part of an art world, are not part of a digital art world, and who, you know, might be random kids, people from completely different experiences who, like, have no idea...you know, who would have no connection to LaTurbo or their practice outside of this would experience this work and go there and kind of get this, you know, kind of unique phenomenology outside of their normal gaming experience. And that really excited me because it made me kind of... It opened my mind to the possibilities of what could be possible, the possibilities of, like, what happens when you meet people where they are? I think that it's really important that we don't just kind of, like, sit in...

I live in Silicon Valley. I'm from the centre of where all tech, good and evil, is born and propagated. And I think it's really important that we don't, like, sit in our little, you know, like, white cube office spaces and, like, you know, make these kinds of worlds in isolation, but instead, like, go to where the people are convening and really making things public. I think that there's such an opportunity for public art, for public experience, for public expression through, you know, various, you know, co-present technologies that we have available to us right now, which was super, super cool and super exciting.

At the same time, I feel like on a harsher side, I think that like I am just seeing more fragmentation. I'm seeing, like, new companies emerge, building kind of their own thing. I'm seeing different kinds of walled gardens. I'm seeing... You know, really what we really need right now more than anything else is a standard protocol for Web 3D. This is something that, like, some people are working on building, but it isn't really something that is super talked about. We don't really have a great way of, like, just loading up and rezzing up 3D web experiences, making files cross-compatible, of making those... We have a lot of different really cool tools. Like, you know, some people are working with Unreal 5, a lot of people are working with Unity, via Blender that allow them to, you know, create in three dimensions for four screens and four web space.

But we're still kind of clunking through, like, various, like, protocol incompatibilities. We're still clunking through how expensive hardware and software is, how inaccessible hardware is, and we're also fighting, like, geopolitics around bandwidth. It takes a lot of bandwidth to load up, like, really complex metaverse experiences, bandwidth that, like, just doesn't exist in a lot of places, even here in Silicon Valley. I come from a small town in the South Bay, and there is no fibre optic cabling on this side of that side of the valley. Like, it's only possible... Even in, like, the richest place in America, you know, you can only get Wi-Fi speed that is so fast. And, you know, we've got a number of... And for instance, like, I did some work a number of years ago at the UCL Multimedia Anthropology Laboratory where we worked with indigenous women and indigenous women organisers in the Amazon. And, like, we were doing all kinds of different, like, live streaming, you know, from there. And they have, you know, technology, they're on Facebook, etc., etc. But, like, down in the jungle, it's really a strong signal, for instance.

So, you know, in terms of like what I feel is really lacking or, like, is totally being disregarded right now is the physical in-person realities of the metaverse. At this point in time, we can't just upload our brains to the cloud and go there. We need to think about, like, human beings who have to eat, who have to, like, have shelter, and who have to, you know, scrape up the money to pay for Wi-Fi and to get a computer and to be able to go there, have the time to be able to spend playing in virtual spaces and not working, like, performing digital labour, for instance. And I just don't think that we, you know, as a very general comment, talk about that a lot. And it's super, super, super important.

Hana: Yeah, I completely agree. I think that we're doing a project, like an exhibition this year, and it's in Brussels, but actually, their digital literacy is so high in Brussels. It's, like, ridiculously high. And you wouldn't think that it is, but yeah, because it's so international and I think also it has, like, a lot of poverty and, yeah, it has an extreme amount of digital literacy. So, we were, like, looking into it and I think that's, like, one of the things like why, like, we're showing our work there to kind of... And I think we were trying to think of how we could do workshops with younger people. Yeah. I think just in general, like, it's like everything's towards, like, making things happen faster, but it's never really thinking about it for everyone. It's about thinking about accessibility and commercialization and profit. Yeah. It's really difficult.

But I think what I was gonna say was... My brain is so dead today, actually, because I've been doing so much work because we're really near our deadline. And we're working in a gaming engine. We're working in Unreal. And we're making a game and it's just so complex. So, you kind of end up spending till, like, just God knows what time working in the engine every day. But I'm trying to remember what my thread... Oh, yeah. So, like, what I was thinking about was, basically, I think it was actually the thread I was trying to say before. But basically, I think that the blockchain, like, it's going to be used by banks. That's what will end up happening, is that big banks will be able to take it on in a way that's, like, very formalised and they'll be able to, like, basically, like, use their system and they'll use a very official system that exists that, you know, they know works for the way that they've been working. But it's really important that, like, there's ways in which we can start thinking about, "Well, what alternative systems can we use with the current tools that exist?" And, like, being an artist but also being self-taught with technology.

You can't just, like, have technologies that serve you perfectly. So, we need to find ways to not just have digital literacy for people, but also to find ways and encouragement and spaces and communities where we start thinking about, how do we start... Technology is really inherently important to how we shape our future, so it's really important that you create this kind of energy to be able to start imagining new ways and new systems through technology. And I think that's kind of, like, we love to speculate the future and I think for us, it's really important to... To be honest, like, unless you are in this beautiful, like, in nature somewhere, you know, quiet, beautiful, dreamy, reality is like...well, for me and I think for the girls, it's like we just like to live in our fantasy so hard and we love fantastical worlds and thinking of how reality could be beyond what we completely know.

But I think it's really important to, like, find ways in which you can just keep constantly encouraging people and talking about cultivating that experience of, like, "Okay. Well, using tools, how do we shape those tools to be different so that we can create new systems of change?" And I think that's kind of like, I don't know, like, just speaking about, I guess, like, because we're talking a lot about how systems arise and how people...digital spaces are happening. I think that's something that's super important. And I don't know how to, like, cultivate it in some ways that's like... Yeah. It's like that's kind of one of the most important things to be thinking about.

Wade: Yeah, absolutely. And this is a little bit tangential, but it just reminds me of, like, a little anecdote. A friend of mine, an anthropologist, was doing some consulting work for a borough of London about, you know, kind of how they were improving digital literacy amongst the community and they had done a program during the pandemic where they had given laptops to, you know, lower-income families, and particularly, like, older women, older people, and non-English speaking people. And the whole project was a total failure and people didn't really end up using them and they ended up finding all these laptops, like, in the trash and things like that because the age group of the people that they were giving these laptops to, it was too complicated. It was too much, like, an office environment. They weren't actually thinking about the real-lived needs of these people like, for instance, some of the little old ladies that they were giving these laptops to, like, they don't want a laptop, they want an iPad where they can have large print and they can scroll through with one finger. They have arthritis. They have, you know, whatever it might be.

And, like, part of imagining the future is also, like, actually thinking about people's needs and actually thinking about how people operate and not trying to force some other kind of construct or system onto them that is arbitrary or doesn't actually, you know, meet their needs. And this is kind of something that you were talking about at the beginning, you know, about how, you know, we need to think about, you know, each other in, like, a more wholesome way. And I think, you know, thinking about the future, we really have to do that because it just doesn't work otherwise.

Hana: Yeah. And I think the thing is it's so hard to know what people's needs are. Like, it's so much more vast and complex than what we would ever imagine. Obviously, there's so many efforts that could be made that are, like, obvious as well. I think there's tons of obvious things. But I think it's always gonna be, like, difficult and it's gonna be something that's like... So, for example, we did, like, a workshop for a specific age group with specific disabilities for the British Museum. And it was really interesting because we had to do loads of training for it to, like, kind of... And everything was so specific to, like, what the different needs were. And what it really taught us was like, "Okay, well, if we are gonna, like, make work for this kind of person or, like, be able to, like, allow, say, this group of people in and be able to communicate," it can't be like a side thing. It can never be a side thing. It has to be, like, you have to be able to help others. It really needs to be taken on directly. It's not something that can be... Yeah. Yeah. So, I don't know. Within our work at the moment, we've been speculating a lot on, like, how do you even have compassion? What is compassion in the future? How do you keep, like, reminding and teaching people about compassion when every type of interaction with people, there could be so many different variables? Because it's not an easy answer. It's not like you just help that person or you just, like...

Wade: Well, just to complicate things a little bit. I mean, not to be argumentative, but, you know, just thinking speculatively here, I don't know if for an online interaction, the complexity of the variables is more complex than a physical interaction or a person-to-person flesh interaction. I think that, like, in a lot of ways, we think about technological interactions as being more complex or more mediated, or, you know, somehow, you know, yeah, just more complicated than, you know, like, just saying hi to somebody on the street. But it's just mediated differently, I think. If you're helping somebody, say, for instance, like you see someone, you know, on the street, and they have like...

I just got a puppy, so I'm using a dog as a reference. Like their puppy is totally misbehaving or is about to run into the street or something. And you could run over and help that person by, like, saying, like, "Hey, can I, you know, give your dog some water? Do you need help? Are you doing okay?" But, like, maybe the dog freaks out and bites you or the person gets really offended that, you know, you thought that they couldn't, you know, dog-parent on their own or... This is such a silly example. But, you know, we're constantly faced with that uncertainty with other people. We can't read other people's minds. We can't know the future. And I don't know. Maybe teaching compassion in the future looks like just treating every response, every click with intentionality, with thoughtfulness, you know, with pause. I don't know. What do you guys think?

Hana: Yeah. So, I definitely think that, like, in the future, you'll be able... I think that... I don't know. Have you heard of, like, Rupert Sheldrake? He talks a lot about collective resonance. So, like, basically, like, all the kind of knowings and happenings create some kind of energy and it, like, still propels them into the future. So, for example, his, like, kind of famous study was like, say, kids do an exam one day, and then the next group of kids do the same exam the next day, and they get better grades, like, pretty much always. And it's like supposed to be to do with collective resonance that, you know, for example, like, in the other side of the world, there could be something happening, but that energy is somehow kind of resonating.

And I think my personal example of it is like I do think we do collectively shape and grow and it's constantly, like, negative and positive rebounding off each other, and kind of, like, spiralling to so many different directions. But a good example is, like, TV. There's so many things that are not acceptable anymore because we collectively know that that was not compassionate. Like, you know, you no longer can you watch, like, "America's Next Top Model" without thinking how fucking insanely, like, disgusting the behavior was. And it's collectively, like, seen as that.

So, I do think there's an element that, like, conscientiousness will grow as we know more things, but the implication is that, obviously, like, we're using tools that we don't understand and it's so unequalized in terms of who gets access to those technologies and who can actually implement those technologies to the masses of people. However, I think it's really important that, like, people do still try to reckon with those technologies and try to invent something different because if we don't try and make alternatives, then it won't exist. You have to write things into existence.

Wade: Oh my gosh. We've talked about this before. And it's kind of, like, something that we've both resonated with about, like, simulation, specifically as a tool to use and something that you guys use in your work all the time. Just by simulating something exactly just by speaking it, you kind of make it possible. And it's one of the reasons too, I think, you know, right now, I think like AI specifically is really like dominating everyone's, you know, thought process, especially here in Silicon Valley where, you know, like, a lot of coding jobs are just not gonna exist in two years because of the abilities that, you know, ChatGPT and other tools have.

I think that this is why right now we're seeing so many people turning to the arts and turning to artists. They're looking for people to help them imagine how this is gonna go because we're just so in the dark right now, like, right at the very, very beginning. And this is gonna go in a lot of crazy directions that, like, I don't even... I'm afraid to speculate on. But we're seeing such a rise in interest in science fiction and AI art and, you know, ways that artists are imagining how these tools can be used for the future. And I just think that that desire is only going to grow and why it's so important for artists like yourselves to be doing this work right now.

Hana: Yeah, completely. I think, like, even if somebody is, like, only one person sees that thing or you share that idea with one person, that's all... I think if you find a piece of wisdom in yourself, you should find a way of trying to share that with someone else. It's really, really important because we need to, like, exchange our thoughts and ideas and we also need to find ways in which, like... So, for example, like, the reason why community is so important is because, like, not only does it, like, bring joy to people, but it's really important because it allows you to have the... Most people want the encouragement of others, most people do things...like, they're not gonna do that thing if they can't share it with someone else because they're not gonna get joy from it. So, a good example is, like, making a meal by yourself isn't as fun as making a meal with someone else because you get to share, exchange, like, food consciousness with each other. That's amazing. Whereas if not, you're just doing it internally.

So, I think this kind of like, I don't know, like... For example, I feel like the best talks we ever do, like, so we often get asked to do talks for students and/or for people, and we always have this talk that we do about, like, how we kind of started off as, like, friends and we didn't know anything about technology and we taught each other how to do it. And, you know, like, for example, it's like we really didn't have any resources. I come from the fucking countryside. I just literally have the internet. I have no money, like, no financial, like, backing of anything. I didn't have any financial help since I was 18. I worked, like, full time waitressing, doing 18-hour shifts, and then trying to do Keiken with it. And we just randomly came up with doing Keiken together. And then we get to collect and share these ideas and now it's physicalized in this thing where we can actually, like, spend all our time making art. And we taught ourselves how to make technology.

And that's a community. It's like I wouldn't have been able to do that without the girls because I wouldn't find a value in it enough, but also when I don't feel so good, I have them to lean on. And I think just, like, constantly not only within the artwork itself, you should find ways in which your day-to-day cultivates and inhabits these values that you care about because I think, like, Adrienne Maree Brown, like, micro-actions can create macro-impact. We have to think of ourselves as, like, cell structures and that we are, like, these little cells operating, we can just make these forms into existence. And we should just, like, never lose sight of that kind of sense of autonomy, even though you might feel like things are so, so complex in the world and things are so out of your hand, and you can't change this thing or, like, you wish that this could be this or, you know, even just the bare face reality of the emotions, the experiences that you have in your life that make you not be able to do those things, always reach towards a sense of community, a sense of wanting to see the world differently.

I think that kind of, like, thinking and inhabiting, and that's why I kind of believe that the blockchain is one possibility of, like, bridging that gap between just art being artwork, or artwork that is commissioned through... Say, for example, our artwork, it's not inherently community-based in the sense that it's... We have a community of collaborators, and that's how we create community. But it's more like us making artworks. But I think that the blockchain can create conversation and community and wisdoms and these kind of things through digital spaces and that will eventually transpire into something that's, like, so much more fantastical and, like, unimaginable than what you can imagine. And we're just passing on these bits, these actions to a future generation. So, I don't know, like, that's kind of how I see it, like, metaphorically.

Wade: Absolutely. I mean, I'm really inspired by artists like Tabita Rezaire who is currently building, like, a community healing centre and spiritual centre in the Amazonian forests of French Guiana. And she kind of just, like, left her kind of cushy spot in Europe and, you know, last time I spoke with her, it was on a video call, maybe, I think it was maybe two years ago now, and she was, you know, sitting in her little wooden cabana, like, next to the river. And to me, it's so resonant because it has nothing to do with contemporary technologies, it has nothing to do with contemporary economies or marketplaces. She just realised that I need to do something that creates a tangible and meaningful impact with people in the world. And, like, I think that is such a powerful idea, but powerful value proposition and simulation of what, you know, the world could look like. I hope she's doing well down there and that things are going well. I haven't caught up with her in a minute. But I think that that, you know, project really speaks to what you're talking about.

Hana: Tabita Rezaire is, like, a really good example of someone who... I don't know. I remember speaking to Arebyte and they did a show of hers. And they said that as soon as she entered, her presence, it was, like, the most calmest installation, apparently, because her presence and energy, because she spends so much care and nurture into, like, her simulating that into existence in the now and in her actions. And I think that it's really important to do that. It's really important that you don't... It's like art shouldn't just exist as like... I don't know. Art can be this, like, very internalised thing of, like, I don't know, like, the kind of archetype is the kind of... What is it? The kind of Van Gogh archetype where it's like, you've struggled loads and you've had this, like, very lonely life where, like, you haven't been seen and then suddenly you get seen beyond because your work should exist beyond time.

But then I think, like, how art should exist, especially, like, the possibilities within the digital spaces is if you can just simulate it in real life and create, like, an aura around you, and the best way of doing that is through more than one of you because then you can have a community of you. And that's so much more powerful. And it's also so much more aligned to organic structures and how we actually... If we want to create structures that are organically formed that replicate or that, like, inherently kind of go through the cycles of the universe, then I think that it's really important to do it in your physical energy that you emit and the things that you do in your day-to-day and the way you communicate and the way you cultivate as well as within the, like, thoughts and imagination of the art itself. And the art itself is, like, everything that exists around. It's like the alchemy of everything.

Wade: Absolutely, absolutely. I'm curious, though. While we're talking in a virtual space and while we're thinking about, you know, like, Neknel as also a video game experience, what do you guys think are the best ways to transmit that energy virtually? How do we do that when we can't physically do that, if that makes sense?

Hana: So, I guess, like, our way of doing it is, like, we tend to have like... It's really helpful for us to actually have, like, a physical space and to basically subvert reality within that space, so it creates, like, microsimulation so that when people enter the world, they get lost in it and they get to kind of be in our world that we've existed, that we've created. And it's interactive and it's immersive. And it's fully embodied. Like, that's our approach of doing it. But then I do think that some of the best ways of doing it really on a very practical level is community building and I think a lot of it is through conversations. Like, it's always about touching other people's hearts, and actually having meaningful, deep, like, relationships with others. And also by doing it through a community, like, you can't do everything yourself, so it's really important to do it in a community-led way.

So, like, for example, with Daata, it's like one of the reasons why we love working with each other is because, actually, they themselves are, like, a community, a collective of people in it. When you're with them, it feels like you have a sense of family with them, you have a sense of friendship with them, you have a sense of being interconnected with your minds, you actually feel like you can share ideas and you have trust with one another so that you can take on one thought. And so, for example, it's like I can, like, say an idea, and then they've come up with something that's really amazing, and then they've had another conversation, it's like in naturally organically form. So, it's really important to have that kind of sense of being and existing.

And for us, that's like, invaluable. It's like an invaluable thing because you know through that that you are... It creates a new value system because the thing is, is yes, money exists, but actually, the way that you operate as, like, a more micro-actions is a lot of exchanges are through... And actually, Josh talks about this as well. We talked about, like, wisdom as an exchange, and it is already a currency, but the currency is, like, not very fixed and there's not, like, a kind of system that is a kind of mass system of it that's official that allows you to over... What's the word? It's like when you can like... It's like I can't take my wisdoms to the government and then overturn the government system through my wisdom. There's, like, no kind of form for that. But I think that, like, we are constantly exchanging through this, like, shared value and care of one another and you've just gotta keep trying to do that in some way because that is so important and those are the things that are gonna enrich you. And that's also, like, the micro-actions that you're weaving into existence that are, like, genuine.

For example, Wade, with our, like, friendship, it's like, we have an ongoing conversation with one another where we actually shape a lot of our ideas and thoughts. When we were talking about the wisdoms, actually, this was something that we just spent loads of time in Clubhouse. And, obviously, you know, we have a relationship where it's gone back to, like, physically being with each other, like, when you come back to London and things like that, but there's this ongoing constant exchange with one another. We both see it as this lifetime thing with one another. And we don't talk about it, but it is. It's this thing where we exchange minds with one another, we grow from one another, and then we meet together again. And it's invaluable. It's important. And we wouldn't, like, get rid of it. Do you get what I mean? It's like we know we wouldn't get rid of it. And we don't talk about it like that, but we wouldn't because we know it's a value to one another. And I think that is a form of being able to weave new ways, a new path of existing in the universe that feels...like, it feels good, it feels right, it feels like you're growing, and you feel cared for. It's really important to feel like you belong. And those things give a sense of belonging.

Wade: Totally. I mean, it's so true. That's such a good example. And, you know, I'm so grateful for our friendship and for all of the conversations that we've had over the years. It's so true. And I think that, like, there is no overestimation of what we can learn from one another, and also what we can learn from synthesising together. And it's one of the reasons why I'm so inspired by the way that your studio works so collaboratively, so in dialogue with other actors, so openly. And I think that that's really emblematic of, you know, a powerful toolkit for the future. And I also think that, you know, something else that you mentioned is, like, we do it also because it feels good, it feels right. And I think, like, that's something that I also hope for a future is...you know, and it's really important to follow those good feelings and to stay there and to, you know, continue resonating. I think that, like, a lot of times, we do things because we think that we should or because someone tells us to or, like, in service of, like, some kind of goal that isn't in line with who we are, what we believe in. And realignment is really critical too. Yeah, yeah. I think I'll stop there.

Hana: Yeah. No, I think it's true. And I don't really know. We need help from others too, but I do think if there could be some way of being able to keep cultivating this possibility of, like, encouraging other... The more that you can build community, the more that you can, like, start sharing and exchanging the ideas and being able to create your own value systems because the thing is it's very hard to create a value system as an individual because it's very hard to be that powerful and have that [crosstalk 01:13:57].

Wade: I don't even think it's possible, right? Yeah, I don't think we can.

Hana: No. Yeah, we can't because it's like... And also, it will become a dictatorship because what will happen is you can't create value. And you create value, but you are at the top and you're not exchanging things with others. And really how minds work is, like, it's an alchemy of minds that, like, I'm not just me, I am everything that is around me too. And that's why, you know, it can be hard to hard to contend with. It's like going on Instagram or, you know, it's like I can be super shallow, like, I wanna watch trash TV or whatever. But it's also, like, those things are... Everything around you is also you because your brain literally is, like, a fucking... Everything that we're perceiving is actually coming from our minds. If we switch it off, it's not there. And we're only... It's like, for example, it's really interesting, actually, this artist who I can't remember their name because we were just in a, like, panel talk with them recently. And it was really interesting because their work is actually incredible. I should find out who they are. But they do VR works. And they basically were talking about how, within the VR, it's really interesting how you can, like, kind of simulate a... Like, you can be experiencing the same thing at the same time in VR, but actually, you're both on local servers, which is really interesting because if you think about the mind, your mind is like on a local server, it's like to your body.

And basically, what happens is, what's interesting is sometimes there's a lag. So, sometimes, say like an interaction happens in the VR, that they're in the VR experience that this artist made in the one local server, but somebody else is also experiencing it, and they can see the trace of someone else. And they both experience the same VR experience at the same time, but sometimes, visually, it looks different. And it's not because it's different in the sense that he's programmed it to be different. It's because your local server is perceiving or simulating the experience just slightly differently and also at slightly different times. And that's actually, like, a great example of, like, that's literally how the brain works. It's like we are just like projecting this stuff into existence on our local servers. And we're always kind of seeing it slightly differently, but it's really important to think that it's like the way that our minds work is like, yes, we have these local servers, but it's like... I don't know if you've ever... What's it called? Is it DMXD? I don't know if you've ever heard of them, but they're like a type of computer. It's like what UVA created. I don't know if you know the UVA. Have you heard of them before?

Wade: You know what? My computer history is failing me right now, but I'm with you.

Hana: Basically, they created this kind of, like, mega computer so that you can, like, do crazy... It's so funny because whenever we work with them, like, technicians love it, so, this type of, like, mega computer. And it, like, allows you to like... It's the computer that allows you to do, like, live interactive visuals because it's so powerful, but it's like when you put the minds together, it's like you do become this, like, mega computer. And if you connect to each other strong enough, you are on the same bandwidth as one another. So, it's really important to, like, you know, you don't want to be like a really old, like, PC computer that's breaking down and no one's using. You wanna be like this kind of mega computer together. You really want to like... I don't know.

I just feel like there's so many ways of, like, understanding the world, understanding the universe, understanding our bodies, our minds, our needs that they're not actually the real way of communicating. They're not correct to how we feel and think. They're just words that exist that make the world more simple, but they're not fully accurate. And I think that, actually, if we start to understand ourselves slightly differently and actually understand it on, like, a very...also like a quite scientific level, on a spiritual level, because we literally are spirits in a body. I think the way that we will make formations with one another would be completely different because we would really understand the value in our interconnectivity, we would really understand the value of what kind of shapes and forms we grow in together. And we'd also understand what kind of directions and how much, like, power you have within small groups.

And I think that's why it's so important to start, like, if art can have a more direct way, an immediate way of starting to build that sense of community, which is one of the reasons why, like, we're so passionate about Wisdoms for Neknel is this possibility of, like, how do you bridge this, like, gap between... For example, it's like, you know, being able to... It's a small action, it's a micro action, but being able to, like, have a string of conversations that happens, you really get to know how we're thinking, hopefully, that will help inform someone else. And then they'll come up with an idea, and then they'll talk to someone else, and then they'll join in. There can be a ripple effect. And I think if we can kind of start to, like, sow the seeds, which is like Wisdom Seeds, it's like if we can sow the seeds of change in a different way of operating, and, obviously, it's not perfect now and it's not... We're imagining the future 1000 years' time because not only do we want to, but because we really believe in, like, that reality could like... It's really important to see the world differently.

So, thinking 1000 years in the future is super important because it allows us to completely use radical imagination to imagine the world differently. But if we can slowly sow those seeds so that it encourages one another and it supports one another and gives gamified experiences, gives different access points, and different ways of weaving something that is a system that is more meaningful, and actually operates in a way that provides the right soil, like, a rich soil to a nurturing ground to prosper in some way that is different. It's not to do with a system that is, you know, the systems that just exist. It's about trying to, like... Obviously, there are systems that exist that are also good, but it's about being able to also, like, come up with alternatives.

And I know it's like a small thing now. And I hope, like, hopefully, it, like, encourages people to think that way because if you can just slowly, like, plant those seeds and start to make micro-actions, then hopefully, it can grow into something else, but just to make things grow, you really want longevity, you don't wanna be thinking about it as like this short term fix. And it's complex. That's another great thing about, like, blockchain. It's like you can have like a project that's in its early formations and you can just watch it grow and you can shape the way it grows. So, if it can do that kind of thing and, like, the ideas of what it could be is... So, there's so many ideas that we dream of, but these are, like, the beginning sowing seeds.

Wade: Totally.

Emily: I don't mean to cut you off, Wade, but just conscious of time and also kind of think that's a really beautiful way to wrap it up. We sort of had a full circle moment of when we started asking what you guys would be doing 1000 years in the future and we've ended up here. And would also just like to say I think this conversation is a testament to everything we've been talking about from, like, community and connection building and how that really forms beautiful relationships, which we can see with yourself, Wade and Hana. So, I'm not sure if anyone here has any questions. If you don't, that's absolutely fine. Feel free to come in, join us in the Discord, and we can have a little chat later on. Or Wade or Hana, you have anything else you'd like to add?

Wade: Just that I'm so excited about this work, the experience, what you guys are building right now. Yeah. It's gonna be a wild ride. Let's have some fun.

Emily: Totally. If anyone here is local to London or in the UK, we've actually got a pretty crazy week this week, is on Friday, we're having a preview party at Shoreditch Arts Club in London where we're releasing the first sneak peeks of our Wisdom Vessel NFTs, which we'll be launching on the 1st of June. We haven't announced that publicly anyway yet, but there's no secret between friends. So, yeah, super, super excited for that. So, yeah. Thank you so much, Wade, for joining us. And Hana, I love hearing you speak, you know that. So, yeah. Thanks, guys. And feel free to drop in Discord, DM us, whatever. There's so many ways you can get in touch with us. So, yeah. Thanks again.

Hana: Thank you, everyone. Have a nice week.

Wade: Thanks. Looking forward to chatting online. Be on web.

Hana: Bye.

Emily: Bye, guys.